About Judo

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

Aikido was created from an unarmed art, as Doc said.
However, there is a link to kendo (actually, more kenjutsu) that goes beyond philosophy. The founder of aikido realized that many, if not all, of the movements made with a sword translated into excellent movements made when directing an opponent's body around. Essentially, in the same way that you swing/pull a sword in order to cut an enemy, you may also swing/pull an enemy to bring him to the ground. This is why many aikido schools also practice with swords.

This is Right On There is a Book (Aikido - The Way Of Harmony) that actually has pictures that show a Waza(technique) executed with a Sword - then there is a picture of the Same Waza(technique) executed with out!

[disgruntled]

i am reading "aikido and the dynamic sphere" right now and i am enjoying it. it really focuses in on to deal with multiple attackers..... this doesn't really relate to the topic, but i thought if we are mentioning good aikido books i will throw in my two cents.

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by disgruntled

i am reading "aikido and the dynamic sphere" right now and i am enjoying it. it really focuses in on to deal with multiple attackers..... this doesn't really relate to the topic, but i thought if we are mentioning good aikido books i will throw in my two cents.

Yes, indeed - That book is one of the Best that your money can buy
Remember the question of whare did a lot of the Aikido Techniques come from? On page 206 = A method of Aikido Named (Shiho Nage)
Also, isn't this technique(method) also with in Hapkido?

[disgruntled]

i have to go check out that page to know for sure but most likely. hapkido and aikido originated from the same martial art..... except i find hapkido harsher. in aikido your ultimate goal is to disperse someones energy without harming them. in hapkido you are not quite done with someone until you know they cannot get back up. it is prefered that you do not kill people, but you do what you need to do to stop the agressor.

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by disgruntled

i have to go check out that page to know for sure but most likely. hapkido and aikido originated from the same martial art..... except i find hapkido harsher. in aikido your ultimate goal is to disperse someones energy without harming them. in hapkido you are not quite done with someone until you know they cannot get back up. it is prefered that you do not kill people, but you do what you need to do to stop the agressor.

Modern Aikido has been taken over by these "New Age Hippies", which has dispensed the "Self-defense" aspects of a once devastating Martial Art!
For example; When giving a class to fellow body guards - I would ask them what Martial Art they were, or had been training in. The ones that were training in the "Hard" Styles, we had to re-train, because by and large most of them Only Knew How To Hit and Kick someone. Hardly any of them had any Grappling Skills, So we could not use them, because of the Excessive Force Issue And, the Ones that had Aikido training - Well, what they knew would work in their Dojo, but not in a Street Setting - the biggest reason, was not the Techniques, but how they were trained in using them!

Do me a big favor, and go to the (youtube) and click on "Aikido" - watch a few of those little films - You will see some Beautiful Moves (harmony with your fellow man type of stuff) One big Flaw in this type of training is that the (Uke) must corporate with the Nage, in order for the technique to work! When executing a Modern Aikido technique on someone that Really Wants To Hurt You, They Do Not Go Along With You using those Big Circles Ect,. Anyway, there were some High Ranking Modern Aikido People, that were Very embarrassed when the Truth of their training came to light!

On the other hand, after you watch a few films of modern aikido. Go to www.aikidosyria.com, whare you will see how An Aikido Technique is Correctly Executed These are Street Worthy. And, with your Hapkido experience - you will be able to see what I'm talking About!

Tom aka Gray Wolf

[disgruntled]

no, i know what aikido is. i am very familiar with it. and no i am not saying that it is a flowery art that does no damage. but the ultimate goal of aikido is to disperse someones energy without harming them. with joint manipluation that is possible but very difficult and that is why this goal can only be achieved by masters. yes it is a very worthy street style and yes it is a very dangerous MA, but the purpose of aikido is SD not to do harm.

when i was saying that aikido is less brutal than hapkido i meant that for example in aikido you throw a guy down and restrain them if they are trying to harm you.... the situation is difussed..... in hapkido you take to the ground break or dislocate a joint, knock them out, or kill them, then restrain them.... situation stopped. hapkido is a harder MA and aikido is softer, but both are effective.

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by disgruntled

no, i know what aikido is. i am very familiar with it. and no i am not saying that it is a flowery art that does no damage. but the ultimate goal of aikido is to disperse someones energy without harming them. with joint manipluation that is possible but very difficult and that is why this goal can only be achieved by masters. yes it is a very worthy street style and yes it is a very dangerous MA, but the purpose of aikido is SD not to do harm.

when i was saying that aikido is less brutal than hapkido i meant that for example in aikido you throw a guy down and restrain them if they are trying to harm you.... the situation is difussed..... in hapkido you take to the ground break or dislocate a joint, knock them out, or kill them, then restrain them.... situation stopped. hapkido is a harder MA and aikido is softer, but both are effective.

What you are familiar with, is what is called "Modern Aikido" - they have the idea that they can use their methods(techniques) to end a fight, with out harming the attacker - And that does work just fine, but only in the Dojo! And also, they have to have the Uke corroborate with them in order to complete the technique! If they tried to execute a technique like that on the Street They Would Loose! The Attacker is just going to get back up and Kick the S*** out of them! But, Thats MODERN AIKIDO!!!!

Then, you have "Traditional Aikido" Which Executes their techniques much the same way that "Combat Hapkido Does"! And that Does Work On The Street! "You have to at least Knock the Breath out of the Attacker, so they can not get back up and do you real harm".

That, is why I asked you to view those films, so you could see that there is more then one style of Aikido!
There is a saying that goes like this; In Modern Aikido, the Uke Laughs when being thrown. In Traditional Aikido, the Uke Screams when taken down!!!

Disgruntled; There is No Such Thing As Being Nice To Someone That Really Wants To Harm You - You have to cause some Pain at least in order to end it!

Only people that have Never been in Harms Way will think they can end a confrontation peacefully!

[disgruntled]

i disagree. anything i have read or learn about aikido is the traditional version. and it was concieved of as a soft MA. and i disagree that the techniques would not work on the street. they follow the basic martial arts Self defense principals. use their energy against them, use the mechanics of the body against them, manipulate the joints...... the reason that it does not hurt when they practice in the dojo is because if you know what is coming you can move with it. aikido only hurts if you fight against what they are making you do.... that is how it works. i know this because hapkido is the same and that is a criticism of it too. yeah fine twisting your wrist might not get you down to the ground, but if you do not go down your wrist will break.

why don't you think it is effective?

[Gray Wolf]

Originally Posted by disgruntled

i disagree. anything i have read or learn about aikido is the traditional version. and it was concieved of as a soft MA. and i disagree that the techniques would not work on the street. they follow the basic martial arts Self defense principals. use their energy against them, use the mechanics of the body against them, manipulate the joints...... the reason that it does not hurt when they practice in the dojo is because if you know what is coming you can move with it. aikido only hurts if you fight against what they are making you do.... that is how it works. i know this because hapkido is the same and that is a criticism of it too. yeah fine twisting your wrist might not get you down to the ground, but if you do not go down your wrist will break.

why don't you think it is effective?

Thank you for asking the bottom-line question The reason that most Modern Aikido techniques do not work on the street, is Not Because of the TECHNIQUES, its because of the way that they TRAIN(practice)! You have made a very good point yourself = "They Always Know What Is Coming"
And that is the way that they "Always Practice". And also, the Uke always stands way too far away - "at least 3 feet", at the beginning of his attack +
their attack is "Always Telegraphed". And, its also required that the Uke, if he is grabbing the wrist area -MUST Hold on as LONG as he CAN, so the Nage CAN COMPLETE the TECHNIQUE. If for any reason that the Uke lets go, it completely Destroys the Waza! "Modern" Aikido, I'll say it again, "Modern" Aikido has lost its Self-defense Aspects, because of the way that they approach their Training - The Attacker(uke) Never even "Tenses-Up", so that the Nage(defender) Can At Least Feel What It Would Be Like When Attacked - THEY ALWAYS CORROBORATE WITH EACH OTHER - NOT STREET WORTHY

I have an Old Student now a Godan 5th degree, In "Shinjutsu" Ryu Aikido, who has a Aikido Dojo here in Bend -He had to go Modern Aikido on me,because as he put it - That is what they want - they come and practice a couple of times a week, too have Fun! He does teach what I taught him to Police Officer Students , but the rest, well, they come in too play!

I really can not count the times, when i was training Body Guards in Defense tactics, i would ask them, who belives that he can defend against a (Two Hand Grabbing Attack) - There were times when i got my Head handed too me(Big smile), but a Modern Aikido player always lost! Because i would "ATTACK" (get it), I would come at him with the Intent of Taking him to the Ground-I never hit anyone did't need too! Now its not that I'm some kind of know it all, its just what i have experinced in my 50 Years of this!

The problem is that you are basing your belief on Theory.
I'm basing my belief on Fact.

All you have to do is just watch the films that i suggested, and , because of Your Experience, you Should be able too See the Truth!

Thank's

[disgruntled]

you still have not convinced me. in fact the biggest complaint i hear about things like hapkido and such is that if someone does not grab you just right or go along with you then it will not work. that is total and utter BS.

1) the partners HAVE to move with the person applying the defense. these are very very dangerous moves and it is the resistance that causes damage. thus even if in real life the attacker does not do exactly what the practice partner does, it will not matter because enough pain will be created for it to be effective. for example, one of my triping techniques is done in such a way that if they do not feel like falling, fine, they break their wrist instead.

2) the reason that people are taught specific grabs is so that they can learn the basics in a controlled manner. i cannot emphasize this point enough, THESE MOVES ARE VERY DANGEROUS! every safety percaution must be taken. and you also got to keep in ming that anything before the black belt level is still considered beginner. and thus only simplified movements and lessons are taught. but as you get higher and more advanced you should understand the basic principals and be able to apply them no matter what the circumstance. in fact if you look at all of my over 200 selfdefences that i was taught, you will see that it is just the same basic principals over and over again from different holds and possitions. i can honestly tell you a self defence for any grab, and not i have not been taught SDs for every grab, but i have a great understanding of what needs to be done.

3) you mentioned that the attacks are telegraphed. all attacks are telegraphed. no one can just come up to you and be holding you. there are always pelimanary movements that lead up to an attck. and it is these movements that we must learn and defend against. i always tel my students that you do not need to wait until they grab you to defend yourself, study their movements. but if they do grab you here is what you do..... and yes to a certain extent i did over emphasize my movements with lower belts and telegraph more, but so what, they are learning and learning requires a slower pace. and to a certain extent these insticts are natural. i have taken beginner students gone to attack them without too much exageration and asked them to predict what i am about to do. they get it.

4) as far as not training in high stress simulations to prepare for the real world, to a degree no one can do that. there is no way that you can train for the real world because there are too many varibles. but i did train under high mental stress. for example for my black belt test and training, the attackers and the attacked were not allowed to hold back. obviously we have to show enough control to stop joint manipulation before we break/dislocate something.... and the attacks were one after another over and over..... and yes i can say that this is not just theory because i have used it in real life situations. granted not much, but i have used my self defense twice in my life. both times it startled me how quick i was... it was honestly just natural. my students often say, well in this situation your natural instinct would be to... and i reply that did not even cross my mind because i know what to do and that is my first instinct.

you cannot say that SD is ineffective because beginners are not pros at it. that is rediculus. and there is no way that you can train beginners in a way to make them street ready in a short time because of the danger involved. and very few people have spent a lot of time studying SD or any MA for that matter so of course in your experience with random people you would see a lot of people that cannot properly use SD. that is not an indication that the SD does not work, that is an indecation that they do not have enough training/knowledge/experience/etc.

i cannot stress this enough, EVERYTHING BEFORE BLACK BELT IS JUST AN INTRODUCTION. IT IS THE BEGINNING OF TRAINING NOT THE END. thus you cannot expect a beginner to be proficient.....

having said that yes there are ways to teach SD so they have some techniques to use in case something happens, but you have to concentrate on teaching the principals of SD not grads or holds.