How do you define submission MAs?

[disgruntled]

we asked this question on another thread, but i do not think we can up with an answer.... (if i am wrong i am sure this thread will magically disapear so i do not appear stupid )

how are submission MAs difined? and is our definition too arbritrary? what is the defining difference between a submission and joint manipulation?

[tntma12]

Thats a great question! I think a submission is a hold, lock, or grab that would make someone stop, give up, go unconcious, or break a bone, tear muscles or ligaments. LOL, I know my definition is quite vaugue and maybe someone can sum it up better or come up with a better definition

As for joint manipulations, I would think that a joint manipulation would be a type of submission, would it not? Anyway, just my 2 cents, but I cant wait to get others views on this.

[disgruntled]

yeah, i agree with you and that is the problem.... we define some MAs as join manipulation and some as submission..... but i think this is wierd, why isn't joint manipulation considered submission? the only thing i can think of is some sort of a political thing that is needed to defind MMA and justify their excussion of other MAs. why is a BJJ arm bar allowed but not a hapkido arm bar? (i am sure there are other examples than hapkido, but that is what i am familiar with)

[tntma12]

I totally agree with you, I have the same problem with many of the Aikido techniques not being allowed while bjj is, it is wierd and I think your right, must have something to do with politics

[Shirindo]

Just show's how ignorant I am. I didn't realise that in MMA there were so many techniques not allowed.

Dis, what is the difference between a Hapkido arm bar and a BJJ one?

Back on topic; I also feel that a submission MA is one that purely has techniques that would result in a tap-out etc. I feel that there are not that many truly submission styles out there (in fact I cant actually think of a single one off hand) but many styles have submission moves incorporated.

[disgruntled]

i will try to find you a youtube clip when i get home... the office i am working at right now has youtube blocked

[disgruntled]

hapkido arm bar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjQr9wZ3w_s

BJJ arm bar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NOTe...eature=related

...oh and as far as defining a submission MA based on tapping out, that does not work because they are designed to either bread, dislocate, or choke someone just as joint manipulation MAs. and in HKD we use tapping to tell someone when to stop too.

[Shirindo]

I completely agree. I believe that arts such as Hapkido and Ju Jitsu, just to mention two, should be considered as a submission art as well as a striking art.

[disgruntled]

after giving this some thought, i think it might have to do with how you entered into the position. MA that are primarily striking would use strikes to go into joint manipulations and grappling based arts go into submissions. does that sound right?

[tntma12]

It sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me. I think alot of it has to do with how people percieve the art too.